Serbians c.1389

[youngster]

One attempt at a Serbian list (drawn heavily from the WAB Serbian list in 'Vlad the Impaler' and the DBM Book 4/22 list):

Not sure about the points costs though. Comments welcome.

Serbians (Acknowledgements to Phil Barker, John Bianchi, Dan Minculescu and Steve Schifani)
Strategy Rating: 2 Climate: Hilly

General:
Despot DL 8+2 ML 9+2 Attacks +2 Army General, Horse 60
Vojvoda DL 7+1 ML 8+1 Attacks +1 A/A Free
Up to 2 Subcommanders:
Vojvoda DL 7+1 ML 8+1 Attacks +1 Horse 65

Core:
Players may select up to 8 units from the Core Section, and must select at least 1 unit of Vlastela, 1 unit of Gusars, and 1 unit of Serbian Archers.

Vlastela Models per unit: 6-15
Order Open MR 20 Shoot 4+ Attacks 1 HtH 4 Arm 3+ Kill 4+ Hits 1 DL 7 ML 8 Pts 46
Weapons: Lance, hand weapon
Armour: Heavy armour, shield
Special Rules: Fearsome, Impetuous cavalry, Shock cavalry, Warhorses
Upgrades: May have cloth barding (+2) or metal barding (+4). Up to 1 unit can be upgraded to Bodyguards.

Gusars Models per unit: 6-12
Order Skirmish MR 20 Shoot 4+ Attacks 1 HtH 3 Arm 5+ Kill 4+ Hits 1 DL 7 ML 7 Pts 28
Weapons: Thrusting spear, composite bow, hand weapon
Armour: Shield
Special Rules: Cantabrian Circle, Feigned Flight
Upgrades: May have light armour (+2), in which case order changes to Open.

Serbian Archers Models per unit: 12-25
Order Open MR 12 Shoot 4+ Attacks 1 HtH 2 Arm 6 Kill 4+ Hits 1 DL 6 ML 7 Pts 9
Weapons: Composite bow, hand weapon
Armour: Shield
Special Rules: None.
Upgrades: Every second unit can substitute bow for heavy crossbow. They can then upgrade to Infantry Crossbowmen for a total of +5 pts (?).

Support:
For each unit selected from the Core Section, one unit can be taken from the Support Section. A maximum of 6 Support units can be taken.

Mercenary Knights Models per unit: 6-12
Order Open MR 20 Shoot 4+ Attacks 1 HtH 4 Arm 3+ Kills 4+ Hits 1 DL 7 ML 7 Pts 35
Weapons: Lance, hand weapon
Armour: Partial plate, shield
Special rules: Shock cavalry, Warhorses, Mercenaries

Voynuks Models per unit: 12-30
Order Closed MR 10 Shoot 4+ Attacks 1 HtH 3 Arm 5+ Kill 4+ Hits 1 DL 6 ML 7 Pts 11
Weapons: Thrusting spear, hand weapon
Armour: Light armour, shield.
Special Rules: None.
Upgrades: May upgrade to heavy armour (+2); may take halberd instead of thrusting spear (+1).

Arriere-ban Models per unit: 20-50
Order Closed MR 10 Shoot 5+ Attacks 1 HtH 2 Arm N/A Kill 4+ Hits 1 DL 5 ML 6 Pts 4
Weapons: Improvised weapons
Armour: None
Special Rules: Levies

Light Guns Up to 2
Order Closed MR 10 Shoot 4+ Attacks 1(per crew) HtH 3 Arm 6 Kill 4+ Hits 1 DL 7 ML 7 Pts: 81
Weapons: Hand Weapons
Armour: Light armour
Special Rules: Light Gun Range 90cm, Kill 2+, 1 shot, D6 hits on formed units; no
ARM save, only one hit against skirmishers unless at 30cm range or less (D6 Hits).

Skirmish:
For each unit taken from the Core Section, one unit can be taken from the Skirmish section. A maximum of three skirmish units can be taken.

Krayishnici Models per unit: 8-15
Order: Skirmish MR 12 Shoot 4+ Attacks 1 HtH 2 Arm 6 Kill 4+ Hits 1 DL 6 ML 6 Pts 10
Weapons: Composite bow, hand weapon
Armour: Buckler
Special Rules: Scouts
Upgrades: May take Two-handed Weapons (+3)

Handgunners Models per unit: 8-15
Order: Skirmish MR 12 Shoot 4+ Attacks 1 HtH 3 Arm 6 Kill 4+ Hits 1 DL 7 ML 7 Pts 15
Weapons: Handgun, hand weapon
Armour: Light armour
Special Rules: None
Upgrades: None

[Lord Alisk]

Hello, this is a good looking list (to me, anyway). I cannot pretend to know much about late mediaeval Balkan history, so these are just a couple of general points which struck me (the list was generally very sound, or so I thought though). Also, I don't have the Vlad the Impaler WAB book, so I don't really know much about the inspiration (but I do have the old WAB armies of chivalry book, which I guess must be a bit similar.)

I can't think of any other army having skirmishing units in core - it doesn't strike me as too problematical, and it might be a unique trait of this list. It is just something to note (also, skirmishing troops, I think, are much, much weaker in CoE than they were in WAB, from my own limited experience anyway).

I would have thought the mercenary knights should be able to come in bigger units perhaps - the normal unit size for knights is 8-20. Again, if the unit size is 6-12 for historical reasons fair enough. Also, I would have thought allowing these knights to have barding of some sort would have been a good addition.

There are no dismounted knights at all - is this intentional?

Also, your cannons only have 1 hit - is this intentional? Normally they have as many hits as they have crew - so 3, normally.

Anyway, these were just things which stood out.

Many thanks, and good luck with fine-tuning the list.

All best,

David.

[youngster]

Hi David - thank you for your gracious and thoughtful feedback. Fair point especially about the gusars; the more I read about them the more it seems that close combat was emphasised - not so easy as 'Skirmishers'.
A dismounted option for the mercenary knights would seem to be appropriate. I will keep tinkering
Cheers
Paul

[Lord Alisk]

Dear Paul,

Glad to be of some help!

Re. the gusars, maybe having them as a formed unit with open order instead would be good (also perhaps in a unit of 6-15, that seems to be the standard 'light cavalry' unit size).

You could always have 'open order' gusars in core and 'skirmishing' gusars in the skirmish section - some late mediaeval lists can take formed missile troops in core/support and then models with the same equipment as skirmishers. Just a thought!

Good luck, and all best,

David.

[youngster]

Take two:

Serbians (Acknowledgements to Phil Barker, John Bianchi, Dan Minculescu and Steve Schifani)
Strategy Rating: 2 Climate: Hilly

General:
Despot DL 8+2 ML 9+2 Attacks +2 Army General, Horse 60
Vojvoda DL 7+1 ML 8+1 Attacks +1 A/A Free
Up to 2 Subcommanders:
Vojvoda DL 7+1 ML 8+1 Attacks +1 Horse 65

Core:
Players may select up to 8 units from the Core Section, and must select at least 1 unit of Vlastela, 1 unit of Gusars, and 1 unit of Serbian Archers.

Vlastela Models per unit: 6-15
Order Open MR 20 Shoot 4+ Attacks 1 HtH 4 Arm 3+ Kill 4+ Hits 1 DL 7 ML 8 Pts 46
Weapons: Lance, hand weapon
Armour: Heavy armour, shield
Special Rules: Fearsome, Impetuous cavalry, Shock cavalry, Warhorses
Upgrades: May have cloth barding (+2) or metal barding (+4). Up to 1 unit can be upgraded to Bodyguards.

Gusars Models per unit: 6-15
Order Open MR 20 Shoot 4+ Attacks 1 HtH 3 Arm 5+ Kill 4+ Hits 1 DL 7 ML 7 Pts 25
Weapons: Thrusting spear, composite bow, hand weapon
Armour: Shield
Special Rules: Impetuous cavalry
Upgrades: May have light armour (+2), may upgrade thrusting spear to lance (+3).

Serbian Archers Models per unit: 12-25
Order Open MR 12 Shoot 4+ Attacks 1 HtH 2 Arm 6 Kill 4+ Hits 1 DL 6 ML 7 Pts 9
Weapons: Composite bow, hand weapon
Armour: Shield
Special Rules: None.
Upgrades: Every second unit can substitute bow for heavy crossbow. They can then upgrade to Infantry Crossbowmen for a total of +5 pts (?).

Support:
For each unit selected from the Core Section, one unit can be taken from the Support Section. A maximum of 6 Support units can be taken.

Mercenary Knights Models per unit: 8-20
Order Open MR 20 Shoot 4+ Attacks 1 HtH 4 Arm 3+ Kills 4+ Hits 1 DL 7 ML 7 Pts 35
Weapons: Lance, hand weapon
Armour: Partial plate, shield
Special rules: Shock cavalry, Warhorses, Mercenaries
Upgrades: May take cloth barding (+2) or metal barding (+4)

Dismounted mercenary knights Models per unit: 12-30
Order Closed MR 10 Shoot 4+ Attacks 1 HtH 4 Arm 3+ Kill 4+ Hits 1 DL 7 ML 7 Pts 20
Weapons: Thrusting spear, hand weapon
Armour: Partial plate, shield
Special rules: Mercenaries
Upgrades: May substitute halberd for thrusting spear (+1)

Mercenary Horse Archers Models per unit: 6-15
Order: Skirmish MR 20 Shoot 4+ Attacks 1 HtH 3 Arm 5+ Kill 4+ Hits 1 DL 7 ML 7 Pts 26
Weapons: Composite bow, hand weapon
Armour: Shield
Special Rules: Cantabrian Circle, Mercenaries
Upgrades: May take light armour (+2); may take throwing spear (+1); 0-1 units may upgrade to Tartars with Shoot 3+ (+5).

Voynuks Models per unit: 12-30
Order Closed MR 10 Shoot 4+ Attacks 1 HtH 3 Arm 5+ Kill 4+ Hits 1 DL 6 ML 7 Pts 11
Weapons: Thrusting spear, hand weapon
Armour: Light armour, shield.
Special Rules: None.
Upgrades: May upgrade to heavy armour (+2); may take halberd instead of thrusting spear (+1).

Arriere-ban Models per unit: 20-50
Order Closed MR 10 Shoot 5+ Attacks 1 HtH 2 Arm N/A Kill 4+ Hits 1 DL 5 ML 6 Pts 4
Weapons: Improvised weapons
Armour: None
Special Rules: Levies

Light Guns Up to 2
Order Closed MR 10 Shoot 4+ Attacks 1(per crew) HtH 3 Arm 6 Kill 4+ Hits 2 DL 7 ML 7 Pts: 81
Weapons: Hand Weapons
Armour: Light armour
Special Rules: Light Gun Range 90cm, Kill 2+, 1 shot, D6 hits on formed units; no
ARM save, only one hit against skirmishers unless at 30cm range or less (D6 Hits).

Skirmish:
For each unit taken from the Core Section, one unit can be taken from the Skirmish section. A maximum of four skirmish units can be taken. Handgunners are limited to one unit for each unit of voynuks taken.

Krayishnici Models per unit: 8-15
Order: Skirmish MR 12 Shoot 4+ Attacks 1 HtH 3 Arm 6 Kill 4+ Hits 1 DL 6 ML 6 Pts 12
Weapons: Composite bow, hand weapon
Armour: Buckler
Special Rules: Scouts
Upgrades: May take Two-handed Weapons (+3), may substitute bow for javelin (free).

Handgunners Models per unit: 8-15
Order: Skirmish MR 12 Shoot 4+ Attacks 1 HtH 3 Arm 6 Kill 4+ Hits 1 DL 7 ML 7 Pts 15
Weapons: Handgun, hand weapon
Armour: Light armour
Special Rules: None
Upgrades: None

[Stuart at GEG]

I'll get this one formatted and we can take a closer look at it.

[balkan_horsetrader]

Already started building this Army