Swiss, c. 1450-1500

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Swiss, c. 1450-1500

Postby Lord Alisk » Sun Oct 21, 2012 2:06 pm

Hello all - ooh, a shiny new forum!

Hello all.
I have a Burgundian army, but have also been beavering away on a Swiss army as a second army, and as one that often gets loaned out to friends. Before converting to CoE I played WAB, so my army was built towards this list provided in the old Armies of Chivalry book. The list I offer bellow is (hopefully) easily usable by other old WABers.
Now, friends who have borrowed my Swiss list have criticised it as being a bit boring to play (i.e. rush forward and hope for the best). Now, one can never get away from a Swiss army being based around pike and halberd blocks with not a lot of missile support, I do hope I have been able to add a bit of variety into the old WAB list with more mixed formations and the introduction of mounted crossbowmen and scouts/pioneers. I do hope that this Swiss list is a little more flexible (and hopefully more interesting) than that in the WAB supplements.
The main differences between my Swiss list and the WAB ones are as follows:-
- It struck me in the WAB lists that though Swiss heavy infantry were extremely brave, their support troops were no more so than those of other armies (often more susceptible to flee, in fact, due to a lack of characters). From what little I know of the Swiss, I get the impression that their support troops were just as brave as the heavy infantry, so I have given all Swiss units the steady rule (a few are relentless). This seems more sensible.
- Rather than having unit upgrades for ‘Vorhut’, ‘Gewalthut’ and ‘Nachhut) (vanguard, main battle line and rear guard) I thought it better to have three slightly different unit types to represent what I perceive these three organisational blocks meant. So, the Vorhut are pretty good fighting units (as they commonly encountered the enemy), and highly flexible (as they might have to fight without support from the rest of the army), and more manoeuvrable. The Gewalthut are the big battalions who can grind out a victory and suck up a lot of punishment. The Nachhut are smaller units, so they are not that good for prolonged combat, but they are flexible and good for filling any gaps in the line.
- I have introduced a few unit types. The Bannerhaufen represent the men guarding the cantonal standards, and so as the nearest thing to a general/army standard, they project a morale bubble. They are also good fighters and very brave. The Forlorn Hope represents formations thrown out before the Vorhut (such as at the battle of Grandson), and in a sense represent a super-Vorhut – very brave men indeed! I thought mounted crossbowmen were a no-brainer (there is even a picture of them in the Osprey Swiss book!), and I thought a scouting/pioneer unit might be cool, I can imagine them felling trees and building bridges for the rest of the army (hence the great axes). I wouldn’t be adverse to taking them out, but the Swiss (as did pretty much all late mediaeval armies, to be fair) did have a skilled logistics and engineering corps, and also the Swiss generally seem to have had very good intelligence and been good in skirmishing (at least in the Burgundian wars), so I thought adding a unit for getting at the enemy early on would be good.
I cannot pretend to be a specialist on the Swiss army c. 1450-1500; I have the Osprey book (which is not very good), a smattering of other general books on late mediaeval warfare, and a fair few books on the Burgundians and French in the same period. If there is someone out there with a good knowledge (or even just a better knowledge) of the Swiss, I gracefully bow to their better knowledge in any tweaking of the list they might suggest.

I appreciate the army might seem a bit rough. The points values are very approximate, and will doubtless need a lot of changing. It acts as nothing more as a starting point!
Constructive criticism welcomed!
Cheers,
David



Swiss, circa 1450-1500
Strategy rating d3+1; climate – fertile/mountainous
Allies:-
Can ally with French ordonnance, French principalities, and Italian cities.
Commanders
Swiss armies didn’t really have ‘commanders’ as such, and as such do not have a general.
A Swiss army can include 0-1 allied leader (DL 8/+1, ML 8/+1, A +1) for 55 points. He can be mounted for +10 points. He has a 15cm command bubble, and he only gives his bonuses to ‘allied’ contingents.

Core Units

Gewalthut
Order MR Shoot Attacks HtH Arm Kill Hits DL ML Points Unit size
Closed 12 4+ 1 3 - 4+ 1 7 7 13 20-50
Weapons – hand weapon, bill
Armour – none
Special rules – steady
Upgrades – may wear light armour for 1pt, or heavy armour for 2pts.
Can exchange bill for pike and gain medieval phalanx rule for +2 points.
Any unit can be drilled for +1 point/model.
Every third unit can be veterans. They gain +1 HtH, +1 Discipline and +1 Morale for +6 points/model.
Except in special scenarios, you must have at least one unit of Gewalthut for every unit of Vorhut and Nachhut.

Vorhut
Order MR Shoot Attacks HtH Arm Kill Hits DL ML Points Unit size
Open 12 4+ 1 3 - 4+ 1 7 7 14 16-32
Weapons – hand weapon, bill
Armour – none
Special rules – steady, mounted infantry
Upgrades – may wear light armour for 1pt.
Can exchange bill for pike and gain medieval phalanx rule for +2 points.
Any bill armed can take two handed weapons for +1 point per model, and a pike armed unit for free. This allows ½ the models to fight with two handed weapons. A pike armed unit must have at least 4 pike armed models (for a full frontage of 8+) to still qualify for the ‘phalanx’ special rules. NB 2nd rank models also fight with great weapons, meaning that in a unit 8 broad and 2+ ranks deep one gets 4 THW and 8 pike/bill-used-as-spear attacks.
Any unit can be drilled for +1 point.
Up to ½ of a unit of Vorhut can be made up of crossbowmen, in which case the unit becomes a combined formation. Crossbowmen in a Vorhut unit must be upgraded to mounted infantry.

0-3 units of Nachhut
Order MR Shoot Attacks HtH Arm Kill Hits DL ML Points Unit size
Closed 12 4+ 1 3 - 4+ 1 7 7 13 12-24
Weapons – hand weapon, bill
Armour – none
Special rules – steady
Upgrades – may wear light armour for 1pt, or heavy armour for 2pts.
Can exchange bill for pike and gain medieval phalanx rule for +2 points.
Up to ¾ of the models can be crossbowmen. In that case the unit becomes a combined formation.
Can be drilled for +1 point a model.
One unit can be veterans. They gain +1 HtH, +1 Discipline and +1 Morale for +6 points a model.

Support Units; can have 0-6

0-2 units of Scouts
Order MR Shoot Attacks HtH Arm Kill Hits DL ML Points Unit size
Open 12 4+ 1 3 - 4+ 1 7 7 18 12-24
Weapons – great weapon, light crossbows and hand weapon.
Armour – none
Special rules – Steady, scouts
Upgrades – may wear light armour for 1pt. Can swap light crossbow for heavy crossbow for +1 point/model.

0-2 units of Crossbowmen
Order MR Shoot Attacks HtH Arm Kill Hits DL ML Points Unit size
Open 12 4+ 1 3 - 4+ 1 7 7 16 12-24
Weapons – hand weapon, light crossbow
Armour – none
Special rules – steady, infantry crossbowmen
Upgrades – may wear light armour for 1 point. Can be mounted infantry for +1 point. Can upgrade to heavy crossbows for +1 point. Can exchange their light crossbows for handguns for free.

0-1 Forlorn Hope
Order MR Shoot Attacks HtH Arm Kill Hits DL ML Points Unit size
Open 12 4+ 1 3 - 4+ 1 7 7 17 12-24
Weapons – hand weapon, bill
Armour – none
Special rules – relentless, bodyguards, mounted infantry
Upgrades – Can wear light armour for 1 point/model. Up to half of the models can carry two handed weapons for +1 point/model. Can be drilled for +1 point.
Up to ¾ of the models can be crossbowmen taken from the crossbow entry above as a combined formation. These must be upgraded to mounted infantry and relentless for +4 points a model.
The front rank of the Forlorn hope must deploy further forward than all other units.

0-1 Bannerhaufen
Order MR Shoot Attacks HtH Arm Kill Hits DL ML Points Unit size
Open 12 4+ 1 4 5+ 4+ 1 8 9 22 12-24
Weapons – hand weapon, bill
Armour – heavy armour
Special rules – relentless, bodyguards, drilled
Upgrades – Up to half of the models can carry two handed weapons for +1 point/model.
Swiss (not allied) units within 20cm of the Bannerhaufen add +1 to their ML, to a maximum of 9. If the Bannerhaufen ever flees, its own morale is reduced by 1, and it ceases to confer a morale bonus to nearby units.

0-2 units of Light Cavalry
Order MR Shoot Attacks HtH Arm Kill Hits DL ML Points Unit size
Open 20 4+ 1 3 6+ 4+ 1 7 7 28 6-15
Weapons – hand weapon, long spear
Armour – none
Special rules – Steady
Upgrades – can take light armour for +1 point (save of 5+), or heavy armour for +2 points (save 4+).

0 – 1 unit of Swiss knights
Order MR Shoot Attacks HtH Arm Kill Hits DL ML Points Unit size
Closed 20 4+ 1 4 3+ 4+ 1 7 8 49 8-20
Weapons – lance, hand weapon
Armour – full plate armour
Special rules – steady, shock cavalry, warhorse
Upgrades – Can have full plate barding for +4 points (2+ save, 18cm move).
Up to ½ of the models can be made up of Swiss light cavalry

0-1 cannon; can take 0-2 cannon after the battle of Grandson (March 1476)
Order MR Shoot Attacks HtH Arm Kill Hits DL ML Points Unit size
Closed 12 4+ 1/crew 1 - 4+ 1 7 7 90 1 (3 crew)
Weapons –hand weapon
Armour – none
Special rules – normal light cannon rules; steady
Upgrades – Can have light armour (+3 points)



0-1 unit of Allied men-at arms
Order MR Shoot Attacks HtH Arm Kill Hits DL ML Points Unit size
Closed 20 4+ 1 4 3+ 4+ 1 7 7 40 8-20
Weapons – lance, hand weapon
Armour – full plate armour
Special rules – shock cavalry, warhorse, allies
Upgrades – Can have full plate barding for +4 points (2+ save, 18cm move).
Up to ½ of the models can be made up of allied coustilliers

0-2 units of Allied coustilliers
Order MR Shoot Attacks HtH Arm Kill Hits DL ML Points Unit size
Open 20 4+ 1 3 4+ 4+ 1 7 7 28 6-15
Weapons – long spear, hand weapon
Armour – heavy armour
Special rules – shock cavalry, allies
Upgrades – Can take ½ plate for +3 points.

Allied Infantry
Order MR Shoot Attacks HtH Arm Kill Hits DL ML Points Unit size
Closed 10 4+ 1 3 6+ 4+ 1 6 6 9 16-32
Weapons – bill, hand weapon
Armour – light armour
Special rules – allies
Upgrades – Can swap bill for pike and gain medieval phalanx rule for +2 points

0-2 Allied crossbowmen
Order MR Shoot Attacks HtH Arm Kill Hits DL ML Points Unit size
Closed 10 4+ 1 3 6+ 4+ 1 6 6 13 12-24
Weapons – heavy crossbow, hand weapon
Armour – light armour
Special rules – allies
Upgrades – may take a pavise for +3 points, can swap crossbow for handgun for -1 point.

Skirmishing Units; can have 0-3

Skirmishers
Order MR Shoot Attacks HtH Arm Kill Hits DL ML Points Unit size
Skirm. 12 4+ 1 3 - 4+ 1 6 7 16 8-15
Weapons – light crossbow, hand weapon
Armour – none
Special rules – steady
Upgrades – may upgrade to heavy crossbow for +1 point, or swap light crossbow for handgun for free. Can be mounted infantry for +1 point, or scouts for +3 points.

Mounted crossbowmen
Order MR Shoot Attacks HtH Arm Kill Hits DL ML Points Unit size
Skirm. 20 4+ 1 3 6+ 4+ 1 6 7 26 8-15
Weapons – light crossbow, hand weapon
Armour – none
Special rules – steady
Upgrades – can scout for +3 points a model, and/or feigned flight for +1 point
Lord Alisk
 
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Re: Swiss, c. 1450-1500

Postby Janner » Mon Oct 22, 2012 3:17 pm

Hi David and thanks for the list.

My only query is the idea that the Swiss did not have commanders, I suggest that the council of captains is not so far removed from the council of war which formed the basis for decisions in many medieval armies. So whilst a single general might not be appropriate (and better reflected by the Bannerhaufen), sub-commanders would merely reflect senior captains.

I think that allies should be drawn in under the allies section rather than form part of the main list. So it might be more appropriate to constrain the units available from the allies section of the French Ord, principalities and Italian States lists :)

Regards,
Janner
 
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Re: Swiss, c. 1450-1500

Postby Janner » Tue Oct 23, 2012 10:38 am

Test.

I did a long reply yesterday and it's disappeared so wont try again until this works...
Janner
 
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Re: Swiss, c. 1450-1500

Postby Lord Alisk » Fri Oct 26, 2012 5:51 pm

High Janner, thanks for replying!

Regarding the lack of characters, I suppose it is a difficult one... I was never really sold on what they did in WAB by having what was essentially a 'super champion' for most units. As you say, the Swiss do seem to have been commanded 'by committee', which I feel would be perhaps best represented by units which project a command bubble, rather than a sub-commander in the normal CoE way - maybe allowing mini-Bannerhaufen units, with smaller and weaker command bubbles would be good option to represent lesser cantonal command committees? I feel that the 'traditional' CoE commander system represents a particular leader (with his staff); this might be suitable for games which represent huge battles (where, say, a unit of 30 pikemen models represents 1000 'real' pikemen, so a command base with 3 models could easily represent a large command committee), but I find it slightly unsatisfying for the Swiss. It makes them 'feel' more different, I think!

Regarding the 'allies' section, I agree, it probably would be best for them to be in a list all of their own. However, at present, there is no CoE list for French principalities (which could represent, for example, Lorraine) or other potential Swiss allies, so I thought it best to put in a collection of troops which could represent an allied force from a French principality (or, I guess, an Italian state), so that the list is more usable right away. That was the plan, anyway.

Thanks for the feedback, it is much appreciated.

All best,

David.
Lord Alisk
 
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Re: Swiss, c. 1450-1500

Postby lerostratos » Fri Oct 26, 2012 10:38 pm

As a general rules, closed order have a MR of 10cm.
As I played Thraces (all Open Order with 12cm) against Romans (MR 10), I confirmed that it is a real advantage because of charging range which is better, so you have more opportunities to be the charger than to be charged. But as Open Order, you will miss closed order bonus...
With Pike with closed order bonus and a MR 12, I think this unbalances the army list too much and is not in the spirit of the rules.
Closed order with a MR superior to 10 must have, in my opinion, four legs.
Lero
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Re: Swiss, c. 1450-1500

Postby Lord Alisk » Sat Oct 27, 2012 7:50 am

Hello Lero,

I understand what you say - and I feel it worth to admit that I have never played a full game with this list, and never played CoE outside the late mediaeval period.

The main reason why I gave Swiss infantry a movement rate of 12 was because one thing mediaeval authors often commented on was that Swiss armies moved unusually swiftly (in part, no doubt because they commonly wore less armour than most troops, and they used very aggressive tactics). Now, I find it a bit difficult to give huge units of pikemen anything other than 'closed' order, in part because having them scoot through terrain quickly seems a bit strange.

Also, as an aside, being armed with bills or pikes, there is less advantage in charging, as if you are charged billmen can fight in 2 ranks, and pikemen just go first anyway!

However, as I said, those are my reasons, but I am not very experienced, and could not say if it was unbalanced in a general sense. I see it, certainly, as a boost to the Swiss to have MR12, but the lack of heavy armour (which most late mediaeval armies have in large amounts) is a serious disadvantage for them.

In calculating (if that is the right word!) the points, I made increasing MR to 12 worth 1 point. If one were to keep MR 12, would you think it better to bump the cost to 2 points?

All best,

David.
Lord Alisk
 
Posts: 59
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Re: Swiss, c. 1450-1500

Postby Vargsen » Sat Oct 27, 2012 3:01 pm

In my opinion, the MR 12 closed order infantry, especially when upgraded to phalanx, will be too much powerful in later medieval games. Most armies rely on shooting and cavalry, so they will have less time to weaken the Swiss before the impact - and a crossbowmen unit involved in a combat against pikemen won't last long. So maybe the Swiss were fast according to the contemporaries writers (although this is certainly only by comparison to the other later medieval infantries, whose tactics were exclusively defensive), you can't retain this increased movement because of the game balance.

The scouts should not be allowed to upgrade to heavy crossbow because this would allow them to deploy in a good position before the battle begins with an important firepower and shoot during the first turn.

I don't understand why all the army is steady : it is historically doubtful, and dangerous for game balance. Skirmishers with ML 7 are quite hard to break because of evading movement, so they don't need the steady rule to be effective. And for the Swiss knights, it makes them better than the French lances, who were supposed to be the best cavalry in Europe at the end of the 15th century. And there are more relentless units in this only list than there are in all the other army lists ! :mrgreen:

And finally, your point values seem to low - a steady pikeman should cost at least 16 pts.
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Re: Swiss, c. 1450-1500

Postby Lord Alisk » Sat Oct 27, 2012 4:05 pm

Dear Vargsen,

Many thanks for your thoughts, I hope I can answer them acceptably.

I do not doubt that MR 12 with phalanx is a powerful combination, but from my limited experience I do not think it would be 'broken' when one considers what other options the Swiss have. I say this because in the games I have played (which are not that many!), dismounted knights have proved extremely powerful, and the Swiss are generally really lacking in armour (only having one unit wearing full plate, and no heavily armoured infantry at all). Now, their infantry might have to suffer one less offensive shooting phase whilst they close, but as most of their troops are very lightly armoured, I reckon quite a lot would be shot down anyway. In the tiny amount of 'play testing' I did on this list (which consisted of shoving odd units around on the dinner table when my wife was out - she tends to giggle otherwise!) the Swiss phalanx generally lost every head-to-head battle with a unit of Burgundian foot knights of similar points value.

I had thought that to represent the 'Swiss speed' of giving the Gewalthut units MR 10 and drilled as standard, but Swiss armies were often quite impetuous, having drilled as standard I thought might not be desirable.

However, you are the 2nd person to think MR12 is too much, and as I said, I am not all that experienced a gamer - might keeping the Vorhut MR 12/open order and having the Gewalthut/Nachut MR 10/closed order be more to your liking? I suppose one ought to try and come to an agreement!

Basically, I see the Swiss as needing to manoeuvre well to win - they historically seem to have been better at than their competitors, but when they made frontal attacks it seems to have worked not as well. As the Swiss lack cavalry (which one would normally use for manoeuvre warfare) and armour (which you need to grind the enemy down in frontal combats), I feel their infantry need a bit more speed to be able to outmanoeuvre (and defeat!) such cavalry heavy armies as the Burgundians (I admit Charles the Bold was a pretty poor general, but that is another matter...)

You are completely correct on the scouts - giving them light crossbows only seems sensible (and makes them more of a skirmish unit than a heavy shooting unit, which is what we would want). I must confess as written they are already greatly toned down from the 1st draft - I had childhood stories of William Tell in my mind, and made them into a super unit (e.g. shoot 3+ - what was I thinking...). Many thanks on this point.

The whole army steady thing was, as I said a response to what I saw as a flaw in the WAB Swiss list where skirmishers were highly flighty, but with nigh-on unbreakable formed troops. Now, from what little I have read on the Swiss campaigns, their lighter troops seemed every bit as brave as the 'line' troops. I do think that making them unusually courageous light troops would be in order - I am not attached to keeping them steady by any means, and welcome suggestions on this point. Do you think just ML 7 is enough?

Yes, the Swiss knight quality is an anomaly, and you are right to bring it up. It was in part lazy list writing on my part, as I just added 'steady' to a generic unit of knights. I do think they should be at least as brave as the common soldiers, so I would be unwilling to ditch 'steady'. However, what about any/all of the following: reducing the unit size a bit (say 6-15, rather than 8-20), taking away 'shock cavalry' and/or 'warhorses'. The first two would reduce their ability to be 'game winning' units (as they would struggle to break down static combat res.), but still useful flanking troops; taking away warhorses would reduce their effectiveness a bit more, but Switzerland was a poor land, and not regarded for the quality of its mounts. How do you feel about those suggestions?

Regarding the 2 relentless units, I feel that including them is not in itself a problem, partly because there are only 2 units, both very expensive, and relatively small. In terms of 'history', I felt at Grandson the Forlorn Hope stood up very well to the Burgundian cavalry, and I thought the Bannerhaufen should be very, very brave indeed, simply because I can't see the men guarding the cantonal standards to be 'flighty' in the slightest. I know relentless is very powerful, and is not generally found in late mediaeval lists - though it is fair to say that Swiss armies were very different to English, Burgundian, French and Breton armies, and the Swiss did develop a reputation for near suicidal bravery, which one would not apply to any of the other 4 armies mentioned. If having 2 relentless units is genuinely too much (and I am too inexperienced to say), fair enough.

Regarding the points cost, I cheerily bow to better judgement! I basically muddled through, and am happy to change as needed.

Many thanks for all your thoughts, I appreciate it.

All best,

David.
Lord Alisk
 
Posts: 59
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Re: Swiss, c. 1450-1500

Postby Lord Alisk » Sun Oct 28, 2012 4:09 pm

Hello all again, and many thanks for the comments thus far.

I think a big sticking point seems to be the issue of MR 12 for closed order infantry. I understand the issue over this - I do not think it 'broken', but I can understand why others do. Maybe someone in an 'official' position could adjudicate on this matter? If MR 12/closed order is not considered correct, then so be it. I do feel that Swiss heavy infantry should be bit faster than their competitors (partly for historical reasons, and also as a 'reward' for having so little armour), but 'open order' for huge pike blocks doesn't feel right somehow...

Leaving that (perhaps major!) issue to one side, I feel the following tweaks are not too controversial, but would appreciate feedback:

- Scouts/pioneers can only have light crossbows (they lose the option to upgrade to heavy crossbows)

- The Forlorn Hope loses 'relentless', and gains 'steady' and ML 8 instead. Probably cost a point or two less because of this.

- The knights lose 'shock cavalry' and (possibly) 'warhorses', and have a unit size of 6-15. Dock points cost as appropriate.

- Across the board point tweaks (again, I ask for 'official' guidance).

- (possibly) allow 'lesser Bannerhaufen' units; these swap steady for relentless, and only project their morale bubble 10 cm. Dock points cost by around 3 a model.

How do these seem as starters.

Many thanks for comments so far received!

All best,

David.
Lord Alisk
 
Posts: 59
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Re: Swiss, c. 1450-1500

Postby Lord Alisk » Mon Dec 24, 2012 7:19 am

I know it has been a while, and all, but anyway...

A few more points which I think would improve the list:-

- Drop the minimum unit size of Gewalthut and Vorhut to 12. This is mainly to make them more resistant to the -1 morale penalty for being under minimum strength. As the Swiss were extremely brave I feel they should be fairly resistant to morale checks - however due to their large minimum unit size in my original list, they would only be a bit above their minimum (few people would want a Gewalthut of 40+, but I do think they should have the option!), and so quite vulnerable to the -1 penalty. I would not be adverse to allow more units to take the 'bodyguard' upgrade to get around this problem entirely!

- Regarding the MR 12 for the closed order troops, which some might still see as a problem, how about giving Swiss units a lesser form of drilled - we could call it 'trained', whereby they got rules 2, 3, and 4. This would make them more manoeuvrable, but still keep the closed order/MR 10. It is just a thought; I (personally) quite like the simplicity of just giving MR 12, and perhaps the option to upgrade to 'drilled/trained', but if this is a game-breaker, than the 'trained' option would make the Swiss more speedy whilst being MR 10

- The steady issue. I cannot help but be underwhelmed by steady. It is a very useful ability, don't get me wrong, and very often steady will win the game for you, when a critical unit doesn't run away because of it. However, the Swiss did have a reputation for near suicidal bravery which I think goes beyond the courage boost suggested by steady. As a (brief) reference, have a look at this battle - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_ ... n_der_Birs, with a very courageous and foolhardy Swiss attack against overwhelming French forces, or this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Marignano with many separate Swiss attacks into very heavy and short ranged cannon fire - in both battles the Swiss fought stubbornly, and even when clearly defeated, retreated rather than ran in disorder. So steady doesn't quite cut it for me. Now, 'relentless', as may have been said, is far too powerful for general usage, as it means a unit has to be defeated by around 5 in melee even to have a chance of running. I would suggest that either: give all formed Swiss units +1 ML, and the normal steady rule, or allow them to take morale checks on 3d6, and discard the highest d6 score. I found the Swiss list is WAB, for all its flaws, represented the raw courage of the Swiss infantry well - i.e. LD 9 and stubborn as standard (you had to take a 20pt captain upgrade to get LD9 rather than 8, but I always did it!).

Anyway, this is enough to be going on with, but any more constructive criticism and suggestions would be welcome - I would really like any help going to try and get this list as good as possible - any maybe even become the bare bones of an 'official' list before too long - I can but hope!

All best, and Merry Christmas,

David.
Lord Alisk
 
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